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Project The Second Fizzer

Discussion in 'Your 250cc Projects' started by Joker, Sep 28, 2016.

  1. Joker

    Joker If you want me find Club250 on facebook. Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Interesting insights. I actually had on my old 3LN engine a generic $6 "universal" bike fuel filter and it was significantly smaller than what I have now. What I put on there now is one of my spare 400 ones, it is much closer to the original filter and fits in the holder fine. I understand the influence if its location was between the pump and the carbies but it is located between the tank and the pump? I don't mind checking it but I'm just trying to figure out what it would actually mean if it is the problem. I can see the pump is simply input/output - it would get to the same pressure it would just work "less hard" to do it if the fuel pump wasn't as throttled by the filter. Surely it doesn't mean it is dosing more fuel suddenly? I mean I am thinking fuel is the problem for sure...

    I'll check the exup again but I'm pretty sure I set it up properly. It seems to move and operate fine at idle though.

    Cheers
     
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  2. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Try backing off an exup cable half a turn, it's all mine needed
     
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  3. Linkin

    Linkin The Apprentice Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club Contributing Member

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    The EXUP cables should be set to have 2-3mm of slack when you pinch the cables together, like a clutch cable should have 2-3mm of slack from the tightest point, usually full lock right on the bars.

    You say the fuel filter is a spare off your 400, is it new or old? If its old and had fuel sitting in it and dried up, it will be gummed up and blocked.

    Size of the filter is important, bigger IS better as you have more fuel capacity and longer life before replacement. The SC4F one from supercrap auto works fine, less than $5 and no waiting weeks for overseas postage
     
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  4. GreyImport

    GreyImport Administrator Staff Member The Chief Contributing Member

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    what difference does the size make? .... u can have a filter the size of a melon but what use is it if the filter inside is restrictive or junk after the first week ?

    I would consider the filter medium inside to be the important component
    2 things I would look for are ....

    1. that it obviously filters efficiently
    2. that it isnt restrictive and has a decent flow rate

    And I would think the only way to acheive that is ....

    1. trial and error
    2. a genuine replacement (if the bike has a factory fitted one)
    3. your mate saying "these are ******* awesome , get one of these"
     
  5. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    How long has the 3LN3 been sitting unused ?
    If the fuel level is too high, it might be caused by something like hard needle tips (needle and seat), with them sitting for a while they may have dried out and hardened up, this could have them not sealing properly and making the fuel level high?
    They may come good after a few day's and soften up again, but might be something else to try.
    Do you have the needle and seat's from the Keyster kit's still ?
     
  6. Joker

    Joker If you want me find Club250 on facebook. Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Bit more of a play today. First thing tried the EXUP - no difference. Moved onto what I suspect is fuel related by lowering the idle right down. Some sort of success, it broke free for the first run but after that was back to its old ways. I leaned up all the needles to try and improve it - it now gets to 12k RPM which is an improvement but I suspect she's still getting too much fuel.

    I'm going to take the carbies off and completely clean the jets, as perhaps I have some blocked mains. I didn't get a chance to remove the fuel filter yet but will look at that as well next time around.

    Yes I still have the keyster kits but am trying not to go down that road too far just yet. Ultimately I could replace almost everything if I needed to, but it isn't going to do much good if if keeps flooding through the mid. It's chewing through the fuel more than I have ever seen so there's another indication.
     
  7. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Sounds like the float levels are too high ?
    How many tuns out are the mixture screws atm?
     
  8. Joker

    Joker If you want me find Club250 on facebook. Premium Member Contributing Member

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    I can't recall where the mixture screws are set to but that's something I need to check as well. Maybe the float levels are too high for this engine. I'm just puzzled why it revs perfectly at idle but is terrible when moving, but it could be my fat bum too.
     
  9. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    The issue its having now could be due to carb sync too?
    If one or more carbs has the throttle blade is slightly more open than the others those cylinders will be running richer.
    After syncing my carbys a few times now i've noticed that changing the idle speed can affect the sync.
    Just setting them up with a piece of wire or whatever does get them close, but it can still take another half an hour or so to get them all close to perfect from there using the carbitune sync tool.
    The mixture screw setting's can also affect the vacuum the engine pulls through each cylinder and alters the sync, you can see the flutter in the sync tool go as the mixtures get better
     
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  10. Joker

    Joker If you want me find Club250 on facebook. Premium Member Contributing Member

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    So had a brief play again today. EXUP is out, sounds like a truck but starts every time no choke. Revs cleanly through the rev range stationary still. Need to pull the carbies off and check for blockages in the main jets. Maybe syncing is a thing, I don't know. the carbies were drained, stored and untouched from the previous bike where it wasn't an issue so I am not sure it would be a priority just yet.

    Something weird is going on with the electrical system though, as the battery only gives me 11.8V at idle. So I tested the stator, seemed OK but swapped it out with the one from the previous bike anyway, tested that too, seemed OK. Even went to the trouble of testing two reg rec's and they seemed OK as well. But no matter what combination I put in there, it ain't working. I am starting to wonder what the issue really is... maybe the flywheel doesn't have enough magnetic 'charge' to run it?

    When I say "test" the stator I mean checking resistance between phases and for any grounding. When the bike's on I get no current from any stator on any phase as far as I can tell.

    As for the reg rec, can only really test for consistency in the board and basic testing seemed to be OK.

    It's a brand new battery too, only put it in late last week. Any ideas?
     
  11. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    When you checking the voltage from each one of the 3 stator leads, is your meter set to 200V AC ?
    Do you have an earth lead from the battery to engine or just to the frame ?
    And if he battery had over 12.6v when you fitted it, it sound's like it's just running off the battery
     
  12. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    you can also use an 80 - 120 volt globe to test stator output as it gives an indication of the current with the glow of the globe
     
  13. Joker

    Joker If you want me find Club250 on facebook. Premium Member Contributing Member

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    In terms of the setting, yes I used 200 VAC (top left on my meter). I was testing DC voltage in this particular photo.

    Screenshot_20171102-081859.png

    I used this method of stator testing:



    Yes I'd agree it's running off the battery... but why? Hmmm......
     
  14. Linkin

    Linkin The Apprentice Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club Contributing Member

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    Is the rotor still magnetised?

    Have you left a connection somewhere unplugged?

    Is the idle speed set to ~1600rpm? If the idle speed is too low you won't get any charging happening.

    Does it charge above idle speeds?
     
  15. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Are you checking it with the stator plugged into the harness, check voltage (AC) at the 3 pin plug just infront of the batttery ?

    Put the negative lead from your meter on to the neg terminal of the battery, and the positive lead from your meter into the back of the 3 pin plug infront of the battery and touch one of the terminal's, should get a reading of around 6.5v + or - .5v AC at idle from all 3x white w/red stripe wire's

    Also check the AC reading as the terminal's go into the reg/rect.
    Check voltage coming from reg/rect to battery too, minimum should be around 13v DC at idle
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  16. Joker

    Joker If you want me find Club250 on facebook. Premium Member Contributing Member

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    The rotor seems magnetised, although I can't comment on how "strong" it is. There's two connections from the stator, one that goes to the reg/rec and another which goes up somewhere else in the harness (can't recall where it goes, I'll check that when I get home). Both are plugged in.

    I'm measuring the current when both plugs are connected, at the rear where the pins are to the three phases. The reg/recs on these have 4 pins, the bottom right is positive, the other 3 are the 3 phases from the stator. Ground is the body of the reg/rec itself (from what I could tell) as the black cable comes out of the harnass and connects to one of the bolts holding the reg/rec in place.
     
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  17. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    The other connection is a 3 pin plug/socket just near the front of the battery on my 3LN3.
    i measured mine just them and i get 6.75v ac at idle (cold) from all 3 wire's, battery is charging at 13.2v at the same time
    Might be a dodgy/corroded connection there on your's ?
    Or maybe it's not fully plugged in ?

    Your reg/rect wiring is right, earthed through the body of the reg/rect and 4 wire's in
     
  18. Joker

    Joker If you want me find Club250 on facebook. Premium Member Contributing Member

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    when you are measuring them are you measuring that between the phases? I mean the 6.75VAC?

    It's just a strange situation, obviously it's not charging due to the DC voltage across the battery at idle, yet I reckon the reg/rec is OK so it's something from the stator side surely. Has anyone else had a flywheel magnetism problem...?

    The other thought I had is do the flywheels vary between the 3LN1 and 3LN3... hmm...
     
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    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  19. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    My 2KR flywheel look's the same as my 3LN3 flywheel but i haven't compared them side by side to make sure.
    I have however tried the 2KR stator in the 3LN3 and had the same voltage output's .


    Yeah each wire (phase) from the stator was putting out 6.75V AC at idle, peak AC voltage from the stator is @ a touch over idle and is around 16V AC
    So the reg/rect has 20.20 volt's AC going into it at idle, and it's converting that to 13.2V DC or more (generally around 14.4V DC)
    My bike battery sit's between 13.8V and 14.2V when i'm out riding.

    I've just tested mine again and it's now reading 16.2V AC at idle (cold), i took my battery out yesterday to take with me and look at another bike so it may have been down a touch.
    @ 4000rpm my stator is putting out 13.6V AC through each wire (phase) from the stator now, but you can see it will drop to 6v or 7V every now and then when i doesn't need to make as much power to keep the battery topped up


    My Shindengen reg/rect is a series (open) type reg/rect
    it automatically adjust's it's output to suit what the battery need's to keep up charge, it basicaly turn's off or drop's the output from the stator when it doesn't need it
    This make's the stator run a lot cooler and also give's the reg/rect a bit of time to cool down as it doesn't need to dump as much heat, both making my charge system last a lot longer that what is was designed for

    The shunt type reg/rect's like what a standard FZ250 has will dump any extra current to earth, causing them to heat up and it will also shorten's it's life
     
  20. Joker

    Joker If you want me find Club250 on facebook. Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Ok so puzzling news. I swapped out to another reg/rec (can't see how that made a difference but I have three so why not), cleaned up some terminals and checked the stator phases again. Good news is that I'm getting readings now (no idea what was happening before, maybe the battery change in my multimeter did something lol). Each phase is around 8.8V.

    In terms of the battery, the DC charge at idle is still around 11.8V, but is around 12.4V at rest. I reckon it should be higher but I've probably been draining it with all the start/stop stuff I've been doing. It doesn't seem to charge until it revs past about 3000 RPM, but it does creep up with the throttle, over 13V at least. So under normal running you'd think it would charge fine. Now why does it do this I wonder... the lowest point on the tacho is 3000 rpm and it seems to be happy well below that.

    I took a very quick video, hard to balance everything and hit the throttle but you get the idea. Yes it sounds like a truck because the exup is completely out atm.

     

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