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Idle mixture by exhaust temp?

Discussion in 'Tech Tips' started by maelstrom, Jan 18, 2015.

  1. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    More great work Will :)

    Well that should indicate the CBR engine is in good condition, yes? All cylinders being in a similar state of health so your wire synch would be on the money.

    I have read that that some like to find that sweet spot using the highest rpm and ease off to the rich side and some like to keep it in the middle. I have always split it but in winter I often go for the tad richer.

    Speaking of heat, there is a lot said about the centre cylinders on various models running leaner needles and/or main jets from the factory. Many people concluding that it is wrong and should be reversed. That is a very bold assumption because without hard data you are assuming that the centre two cylinder are too hot and the outside two are the optimum temperature. As a manufacturer would you choose to allow two cylinders to run excessively hot? Would it not be more likely that you would allow the outside cylinders to run cooler than optimum and the centre two to run at optimum?

    The higher the engine temperature the less fuel will be required as the air will be less dense. Think of when your engine is cold, you need to enrichen the mixture with the choke to start and keep the engine running until it gets to the correct temperature. As the drive for fuel economy became paramount engine temps were pushed higher and the introduction of EFI with electronic ignitions allowed manufacturers to run the leanest mixtures possible. I am not suggesting that this setup, the centre cylinders leaner, would be optimum for power, especially considering that the risk of detonation increases as heat rises, but I would be more inclined to make all cylinders the same for maximum power rather than switching the leaner jets/needle to the outside cylinders. Jets are all the same on the Yamaha race kit carbs & SP (Sport Production) models that I have looked at.

    I have not seen much concrete evidence on this topic just anecdotal so I am open to any new information.
    cheers
     
  2. Willrcr15

    Willrcr15 Well-Known Member

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    Yes it's a great bike, so impressed with the engine, it sounds like a 1000cc when its revved, starts & idles sooo clean, it is what sold us on it when we bought it, I wish the FZR ran as well however the FZR goes like a shot so shouldn't be fooled by the idle.
    I'm happy with the wire feeler as a gauge to balance the carbs now the results are in, certainly good enough for the road, that's right, the FZR today was spot on with the vacuum gauges too, I did adjust them but only a minuscule amount.
    I had to make the 4 vacuum tube adapters as the fzr had nothing only 4 screws blanking off the holes. I got 4 M6 x 16mm bolts & drilled them out right through 3mm then drilled a 4mm in the bolt head end about 5mm deep to accept a piece of 4mm brass tube soldered in, all worked well & is a permanent improvement if I ever need them again.
    I shot the temps again on the fzr & she runs a bit hotter than the CBR, maybe due to the EXUP valve holding up the flow at idle?? but interestingly cyl 2 was hotter by about 90 deg, I didnt go there, I've had 2 days working on them & had enough fun by then & happy with the result. The FZR will be stripped down in 12 months for a restoration so she can wait, but she read about the same temps as the ZXR750 & same hot cylinder, it's just coincidence but interesting.
    It's all confusing, nothing concrete re jetting 4 cylinder engines.
    How's this, my zxr750 1994 has the 2 centre cylinders richer & I think we followed that when we fitted the Factory Pro kit, the next basket case we did was dads gsxr750 1997 & it's the opposite, the 2 centre cylinders are leaner but we also got a Factory Pro kit for it & we ended up using all 4 with the same size jets thanks to Jamie at Sportscycles at Gateshead on his dyno (120 rear wheel hp !) long story that one.
    PS the CBR is for sale if anyones interested, not cheap but a real good one.
     
  3. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Speaking of your wire gauge it is one of the recommended ways to synchronise in some service manuals. A lot cheaper than the alternative too.
    I thought most synch sets used to come with a whole bunch of adapters to fit the various manifold screws, I know the mercury ones used to..

    How about that Kawasaki being opposite? Now you have to figure that they put these things on an engine dyno and tune them to death to get the carbs/igniton/airbox/cam timing/exhaust tuning etc all set. So in the end what do we know? Next to nothing! Without all the hard data it is just guessing.
    Like you said Will, "nothing concrete re jetting 4 cylinder engines".
    Maybe we know that 4 jets being the same size is pretty good and not much else.
     
  4. Willrcr15

    Willrcr15 Well-Known Member

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    I haven't seen or heard of using the wire anywhere, I just tried it once & seemed to be ok, looks like it's pretty accurate but still can't beat the vacuum guages.
    The ZXR jet set up is from factory, we went down the carby road when we couldn't get her to go, bought a basket case & did a rebuild/restore, everything was in order & surgically clean then we found someone had substituted one of the carbies with an earlier year model unit, same body but completely different jetting & needle & all the pollution & airbox hosing was off it & in a box. That's when we learnt how critical it all was, & they're all the same, no air box no go, even changing the air filter from std to K & N affected it not to mention the Hindle 4 into 2 then into 1 exhaust & muffler. Funny I went for a ride on Sat with Dad & only got a couple Km's down the road & she played up, turned around & went home to find the crankcase breather & anti backfire breather tubes not connected to the air box, so critical, only because the airbox was bleeding through the hose holes.
    Jetting with all 4 the same works for the GSXR on the dyno & probably the same for everything else, we went with the Factory Pro settings on the ZXR as they know more than most, they raced the Yoshimura team & gave them a good run. I know it's a bit sad having something fit to race & on the road but I can't help it & it is such a pleasure to ride when the throttle is opened & that power is realized with such ease.
    I'd love to know why richening up will cool the cylinder, I get it in 2 strokes but not 4's. I know a lubricant engineer, I'll send him an email & see if he know's.
     
  5. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Contributing Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Probably because some of the unburnt fuel from the cylinder is still burning as it leaves the port into the pipe. Have you ever run an engine with no exhaust pipes? The flames coming out of the ports were about a foot (300mm) long when opening the throttle with the throttle pump giving a squirt of raw fuel. Good fun but effing noisy!
     
  6. Willrcr15

    Willrcr15 Well-Known Member

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    I'll bet it sounded nasty, never done that.
    Now you'll have all the young blokes everywhere trying it !
    You can get a flame out of a short header pipe, probably not much quieter either
     
  7. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    When I find that service manual again Will I will post it up but I can't remember which one it was.

    More fuel and less oxygen makes it colder. What is interesting is that the peak temp is at or just leaner than the so called ideal stochiometric ratio. From the article I linked to:
    "As the pilot leaned the engine, the EGT needle rose to a peak value on the meter, then started to fall off. The note would note where the needle peaked, then would richen until the needle dropped by the desired number of tick marks (e.g. three for 75 degrees Fahrenheit)."
     
  8. Willrcr15

    Willrcr15 Well-Known Member

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    Ok, interesting. Sarting to see how it's possible, must be an evaporation / heat transfer thing or a cooler burn with an efficient air fuel mix.
    I'll do that email now, I've got 5 min spare.
    Will's over in your backyard in Vientene, Laos ?? spell check! travelling through Thailand from Bangkok then north to the border & then down through Laos, Vietnam & Cambodia & back to Thailand, he's bored in Vientene, hired a 125 scooter, sounds like he went for capacity to tow both of them & he's loving it. Anything worth seeing ? I told him to talk to the locals & find out what they do for entertainment, cock fights etc maybe, not sure what goes on, no english there but Tess speaks French which helps sometimes.
     
  9. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Sorry, I'm not into travelling around here at all. It is a big deal for the tourists who come from cold countries, "Ooooh a beach!" but being an Aussie the beaches here are ho hum and I've been in Asia too long.
     
  10. Willrcr15

    Willrcr15 Well-Known Member

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    I understand, theyre on the Mekong most of the time so far so no beaches, he's not really a beach boy anyway.
    The bike hire has offered a new freedom that they are enjoying seeing sights that they otherwise wouldn't have.
    Next time the GSXR is here I'll take some temp shots & see how they look out of interest, she's in perfect tune like the ZXR but she's pretty hot, cams, pistons, exhaust, carbies & god only knows what else internally, at that stage we didn't get into the engine too deep, didn't think there'd be anything there but now we have to believe there is, they just don't make that sort of power without serious work.
     
  11. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Oh bike hire is a great idea. They will have to be ultra careful if they do that in Thailand. One of the highest death rates in the world and don't give anyone the finger or abuse anyone when they nearly kill you or they will pull a handgun.
    http://www.nationmultimedia.com/nat...Thailand-among-highest-in-the-w-30202066.html
    http://www.thaiskale.com/journal/ho...e-in-thailand-world-ranking-crime-statistics/
    Although tourists have a romanticised view of this place, the reality is a long, long way from that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2015
  12. Willrcr15

    Willrcr15 Well-Known Member

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    Oh good , that makes me feel better. Haven't heard from him for a few days now either !
    Not in Thailand now, flew to Hanoi, thats probably worse.
     

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