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Project 3LN1 Restoration

Discussion in 'Your 250cc Projects' started by camarda, Mar 22, 2020.

  1. driftwood

    driftwood Well-Known Member

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    @GreyImport disses pods (Ramair advert on eBay). I sure know that just an empty airbox is no good
     
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  2. beano

    beano Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Are you still getting black smoke out of the exhaust?

    It does sound like an overfuelling issue to me anyway. Thinking way back to when I was setting my own fuel level, I remember having to deal with air bubbles in the clear line every time I opened the drain screw. This would give a false reading and usually a couple of flicks with my finger would release them. Maybe something to check?

    I haven't gone back to read the entire thread but have you done a compression test at all? Its running on all 4 cylinders so I'm assuming that your plug leads are in the correct order.
     
  3. driftwood

    driftwood Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone know about these 3 vent holes in the slide?


    IMG_20210129_163728_718.jpg
     
  4. GreyImport

    GreyImport Administrator Staff Member The Chief Contributing Member

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  5. driftwood

    driftwood Well-Known Member

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    Thanx. Obvs the central one locates the spigot on the needle ring (but WTF, it's begging to leave the needle unseated and sitting 2 notches higher). Wondered if rich running arises?
     
  6. camarda

    camarda Active Member

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    Not anymore,

    I picked up an fzr without a broken front fork and merged the best bits of the two onto one. This one looked newer so I put the carbs that were on that bike in the video you linked onto the new bike and it started and ran nicely. I rode around that time without the airbox and the bike ran ok but it surged. I later realised this was likely a faulty fuel pump as the new one pumps a steady steam and doesn’t splutter struggling to fill the float bowls on time. It revved nicely up to 18k rpm in neutral and 15k while under load otherwise.

    Before I went to put on the airbox I synced the carbs using guitar wire and then put them on, I didn’t change anything else. The bike ran horribly. I took apart the carbs and checked everything, cleaned all the components and rebuilt them again to be sure. The bike still won’t run....

    This is before when I rode it around with no airbox and it felt good aside from the surging. The smoke from the front is just **** burning off the engine because it hadn’t been started in so long.


    This is now where I must rev to stop it from dying. It will barely idle and then die. This is full throttle. Notice the fuel spraying everywhere out of the carbs?? I haven’t done a compression test but have I potentially damaged the engine running it incorrectly at such high rpm with a leaning mixture??? I guess I’ll need to put the carbs on the other engine and test.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2021
  7. driftwood

    driftwood Well-Known Member

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    Progress aint always in a straight line. Mine smokes like your exhaust - the worst cyl (proven by killing it) has the best compression. So I suspect valve stem seals.
    Plugs keep fouling: metered out they oughta be >2000kOhm. I deep clean to get temporary improvement, but fear that full rebuild (on a low km eng) woulda been better option. 5yrs since rego let all rubber harden up, and oil additives aren't fixing this.
     
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  8. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Just so you know, valve stem seals can be changed with the head still attached:

    Coiled rope down the plug hole to keep the valves right on the seats and prevent them from striking the piston(s) and falling in, wind the piston up till it stops

    A piece of hard plastic tube with two neodymium magnets enbedded is used to tap down on the spring retainers and capture the collets

    Then you will need a proper tool to remove the valve stem seals and an appropriate tool to fit the new ones

    A small tool which bridges the cam retainer caps would be used to re-compress the springs

    I would likely be best accomplished with the engine out for working space and access

    BTW I haven't done this personally, but there was an excellent video on youtube of someone doing precisely this on a V8, engine still in the car
     
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  9. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    You haven't damaged the engine from a lean mixture. It does not sound like running on 4 cylinders to me. Also can you run it again without the new fuel pump.
     
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  10. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    I've seen some carbs do this, but I can't for the life of me remember what causes it. I think too much fuel or fuel not atomizing properly?
     
  11. camarda

    camarda Active Member

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    Keep in mind this engine(different bike does not blow smoke so I assume no valve stem issues. However, there must be another issue. Thanks for that @ruckusman however, ill look into it if I go back to the other engine.

    They are brand new plugs @driftwood however I have not measured the resistance. I may do this if I figure the issue isn’t the carbs.

    I tried running it with both pumps @maelstrom and the issue is the same. Maybe it isn’t running on 4 cylinders. It does sound rather horrible. Would this be an ignition coil/spark issue or something else?

    Stand by while I make the time to put the carbs onto the other engine and isolate the issue. If anyone has any other ideas they would also be appreciated.

    Thanks for all your help guys it’s greatly appreciated.
     
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  12. camarda

    camarda Active Member

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    Keep in mind this engine(different bike) does not blow smoke so I assume no valve stem issues. However, there must be another issue. Thanks for that @ruckusman however, ill look into it if I go back to the other engine.

    They are brand new plugs @driftwood however I have not measured the resistance. I may do this if I figure the issue isn’t the carbs.

    I tried running it with both pumps @maelstrom and the issue is the same. Maybe it isn’t running on 4 cylinders. It does sound rather horrible. Would this be an ignition coil/spark issue or something else? It just frustrates me that one day it was working almost perfect and the next day it barely works. Absolutely baffling.

    Stand by while I make the time to put the carbs onto the other engine and isolate the issue. If anyone has any other ideas they would also be appreciated.

    Thanks for all your help guys it’s greatly appreciated.
     
  13. camarda

    camarda Active Member

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    Ok so I’m still gobsmacked, I swapped the carbies over to the other engine and it starts and runs fine so it’s definitely not the carbies.

    I tried putting the ignition coils from that engine on this one and it still has the same issue. I also tried swapping the box at the back and the voltage regulator etc as I noticed the fuse has melted the plastic housing. Still the same issue. What could it be???? I’m so confused right now, is it the wiring somewhere else.
     
  14. camarda

    camarda Active Member

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    This is also really hot. Even with a new voltage regulator.


    image.jpg
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2021
  15. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Now is probably a good time to back track on what bit went to which bike when you merged the two into one good one.

    You may be confronting something simple, plug leads need trimming.

    Coil to plug lead routing, one goes to cylinders 1 & 4 the other goes to 2 & 3 - sheepish grin, because I've done it, lack of attention...

    In the second video, it's only running on perhaps even 2 cylinders, so that fuel spray back out at you will be because there is already a back pulse, now it contains unburnt fuel, the camera moved too quickly to see which slide may not have been moving properly

    New voltage regulator, check the voltage output, unfortunately you cannot just assume it's working, is it really well earthed?

    Whatever you do, only one change at a time because you may have two problems which complicate diagnosis.

    How it revs or rides without the airbox doesn't tell you a whole lot about actual performance
     
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  16. camarda

    camarda Active Member

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    I didn’t change much @ruckusman just the better throttle cable, brakes, brake lines and front master cylinder that you sent me.

    I have now swapped the ecu, ignition coils, and voltage regulator as well as I know they work fine on the other bike.

    Today, I swapped the plugs over from the other bike and it fired up ok. Weird because they were brand new plugs. Ensured all the plug leads were good and doubled checked it all. Some were loose so I retrimmed them and screwed them in tight.

    Idled for a while and it was nice and sounded like it was on 4 cylinders again. Revved up well and responsively.



    Then all of a sudden it stopped working again. I have never felt my blood boil so much in a long time nor have I been this close to the brink of a mental breakdown from this bike haha. I just don’t understand what’s going on.

    See this video how the idle knob does nothing whereas a few minutes earlier it was fine.



    Now it’s in an even worse state where it will barely start nor will it rev at all. How can this thing be so temperamental when I literally haven’t changed anything between those videos. I’m so close to giving up and I really don’t want to because I have spent so many hours on this thing and you guys have helped me so much and I really want to finish it and ride it. It saddens me that I could ride it a week ago and now I can’t even get it to idle. Just so frustrating.

    Question: when it says the base mixture screw is 3 turns out, does this mean 3 whole revolutions. I have tried 2.5 and 3 revolutions and none of these work. I can’t even get it to idle so that I can adjust them to the right spot anyway.

    I’m at my wits end and none of this makes sense. The last thing I need to do soon is check the fuel levels again as I haven’t set them since working on this thing a long time ago but I doubt they would have changed at all. Regardless, if they were slightly off, they wouldn’t cause it to perform this badly so it’s definitely something else.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2021
  17. GreyImport

    GreyImport Administrator Staff Member The Chief Contributing Member

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    Welcome to the world of FZR250s .... and once your in it theres no escape :D

    Ive been at my 3LN1 for like 9 years now and guess wat ... it still doesnt run 100% correctly , but its done plenty of ks along the way

    Your idle knob is only a stopper for the throttle control , in other words the butterflys ..... so all it basically does is hold the throttle open a fraction so it doesnt stall obviously .... same as if u held the throttle on the bar slightly twisted
    screw it right in ... then out about a dozen half turns , and that should have it somewhere in the right place and u dont have to worry about it till the bike actually runs

    With the pilot screw turn them in till they 'seat' then out the number u want .... which is 1 full turn at a time

    I cant remember wat u have done in the past but have the pilot screws got the oring and washer setup correctly on them?
    pilot merge chamber clean?

    With that electrical business and the RR have u tested the output voltage with a multimeter?

    When u try to start it in that last video , to me u arnt hitting the starter long enough .... let it go a bit longer ... all u will do is flatten the battery a bit quicker .... they also flood pretty easily , so stop after a few goes and come back 5 minutes or so later if u have been twisting the throttle madly or holding it on during startup attempts

    I dont think I saw any mention of the choke?

    sounds great in the first vid though ... :lolsign:

    And as mentioned ... try to only change 1 thing at a time to try and pinpoint the problem

    Even like 1 coil at a time kinda thing ..... and if it ran A1 for a bit then died in the arse then it could be heat related ... something "breaking down' when it gets hot

    Also valve clearances needing to be done can cause all kinds of problems

    Hang in there .... just think , if u can get it running right then u will have nothing to do .... :fuckyou:

    Also .... your slides dont look like they are sliding .... this is mine many years ago ... #1 had a pinched diaphragm but gives u an idea of how they dance ... with thanx to Joe Cocker :)

     
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    Last edited: Jan 30, 2021
  18. GreyImport

    GreyImport Administrator Staff Member The Chief Contributing Member

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    Also ... it looks like youre using the tank to run it .... if the tank breather is blocked then after running awhile it creates a vacuum inside and no fuel , or very little, will flow .... opening the cap can test for that

    Is the inline filter new/old? installed correctly ? (as they are directional)
     
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  19. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    OK, so it looks like you've had different fuel pumps on it, I always suspected that fuel pressure from pumps which differed would yield a different fuel level, don't go swapping pumps again, check the fuel level with the pump you have installed

    Check voltage if you can get it to run

    IIRC pilot screws 2.5 turns out, as an @GreyImport suggested, check the order of the o-ring/washer is correct

    For now however, I'd say the problem is working you, not the other way around, so time to perhaps write down a troubleshooting list - it definitely seems to be spark related, so just verify carbs - remind me, did you put new emulsion tubes in the carbs

    Heat or lack of it on an exhaust header will give a clue as to which cylinder is misfiring or not firing at all

    It will be easy WHEN you solve it, for now walk away and consider your symptoms, work with what you actually know and verify what you don't know for certain
     
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  20. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    One last trick, if you can get it started and you've got the throttle open AND it won't rev, flick up one slide and see if springs to life - that was something I learned at the time when we were yet to figure out why they would chug because of worn emulsion tubes
     
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