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Project New acquisition - Honda Spada

Discussion in 'Your 250cc Projects' started by jmw76, Jan 27, 2020.

  1. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    Yep aware of the colour coding on bearings. Will also check the pump.
     
  2. Gizziracer

    Gizziracer Well-Known Member Contributing Member

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    I haven’t pulled one of these tensioners apart but I am 99 % sure they are hydraulically operated. They do not work at all with no oil present and provide absolutely no tension on the chain when no oil present. In fact, the test is to pull the tensioner arm back by hand once filled with oil,, if you can compress them in similar fashion as when no oil is present they are faulty and need replacement.. at over $450 each this often makes it more cost effective to source a different engine. Fortunately they last a long time and do respond well to thorough cleaning and fresh oil.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  3. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Gizzi, having pulled these things out of the motor and having inspected them carefully, I can assure they are not hydraulically operated. Oil under pressure does not in anyway control the absolute force applied to the chain. Oil drips into the back of the unit from an oil squirter above. The oil just fills the piston assembly and provides damping for the spring. Much like a shock absorber on your suspension. If this damper is worn then the chain can likely oscillate during operation resulting in poor control of chain tension. If the damping piston sticks in the bore it could result in the full spring pressure not being applied to the tensioner arm. When full of oil, the damper provides considerable resistance to movement of the arm as you have stated.
     
  4. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    Once I get the flywheel off, I can split the crankcase and inspect the bearings.
     
  5. Gizziracer

    Gizziracer Well-Known Member Contributing Member

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    Ok, happy to stand corrected. As stated I actually haven't pulled one of these tensioners apart to inspect and one day when I have time I will do it out of interest. I have a few dead ones in the shed. I am interested though, if , as you say, oil only "provides damping for the spring", why the tensioner looses tension when drained of oil and in fact looses all tension when full of degreaser or kerosene. The oil stops the tensioner arm returning and holds it in place with considerable force that can only be overcome by applying very slowly applied pressure as the oil is allowed to drain out of the piston out of small orifices. Possibly splitting hairs as to whether its genuine hydraulics if the liquid that applies the pressure is in a sealed container as in a brake line or the oil is allowed to drain off as in a motorcycle fork but as stated previously, the engine oil provides the force that holds the arm firmly in place. In general if the movement of pressurised liquid generates force in a machine this is called hydraulic.
     
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  6. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    Yep. Lets just agree that the tensioner is not activated by line pressure from the engine oil pump.
     
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  7. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    I saw looking at some threads on another forum yesterday re similar Honda timing chain tensioners failing, was on a Honda Blackbird from memory.
    There was a fix one guy posted for it by modifying the tensioner.
    I will see if i can find a link and post it up.
     
  8. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  9. Gizziracer

    Gizziracer Well-Known Member Contributing Member

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    Totally agree that "the tensioner is not activated by line pressure from the engine oil pump. :) I have heard of people modifying them by increasing the distance the arm can travel. Involves disassembling a part that was never designed to be disassembled and making a guestimate re removal of material.. I guess as these parts become rarer repairing the unrepairable will become necessary.
     
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  10. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    Got a bit further with my engine disassembly today.
    It looks like the main source of the engine noise was a big end failure.
    Strangely only the big end for the front cylinder had failed.
    Everything else looks ok, so far. Even the crank looks ok.
    Not sure what the cause was, but certainly would explain why it took a little while to build oil pressure on start up.
    It doesn't look like the engine has ever been opened. All std size bearings.

    big-end-bearing-front-failure.JPG
     
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  11. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    So the current plan is:
    Lightly linish the crank journals.
    fit new bearing shells
    Very light bore hone
    Fit new rings
    Fit new cam chains
    Check oil pump, if serviceable reuse
    Fit new gaskets
    Put it all back together.

    I am going to source as much as possible off low cost internet sites.
    I want this to be a bit of an exercise in seeing how cost effectively you can rebuild one of these little machines and still keep it reliable.

    I figure I can get out of it with engine parts costing only $100 or so.

    Peter.
     
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  12. Gizziracer

    Gizziracer Well-Known Member Contributing Member

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    Wow, rings, bearings, gaskets for $100 is pretty nifty shopping.. I usually pay around $60 for a full gasket kit (aftermarket),, not sure I’d trust bearings and rings from China with no known provenance or history but I’m very interested in how things pan out. It’s great your effectively doing a full check/rebuild.
     
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  13. Linkin

    Linkin The Mechanic Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    AHL on Aliexpress have been pretty good, I've used their pistons rings and little end bearings on an FZR250. Gaskets can be hit and miss, genuine are best.

    Good luck with the rebuild.
     
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  14. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    Yep.
    Ordered on Aliexpress.
    Big ends, mains and rings for just over $57.
    Complete gasket set for under $20
    cam chains sourced locally for $25 for the pair.
    New carb manifold boots and clamps $21.

    Will probably take a month or so before all the parts come in.

    I have used Aliexpress quite a bit for other things. Mostly the experience is good.

    So much OEM stuff comes out of China now anyway.

    It used to be Jap crap that we were wary of. Times are a changing.
    It pays to keep an open mind. Hence my experiment.
     
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  15. Andych

    Andych Moderator Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Be interesting to see how you go with the cam chains. I ordered one of the cheap ones for the SRX originally and when it arrived it was so flimsy and loose on the links compared even to the old one that I threw it in the bin and bought a real one.

    That beating is really bad, good catch if it didn’t chew up the crank.
    I might even get inspired to drop my engine now and have a look at the big ends.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     
  16. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. The cam chains might be interesting. I will inspect carefully before using. Looks like I was lucky with the crank. I can not work out why one set of big end shells were so bad. Clearly they have gotten really hot. Where shells normally stay in the cap/conrod when you separate them. These stuck to the crank. The literally fall out of the rod if you try to sit them back in there. I am amazed the crank looks ok. A lot of metal has been chewed off the shells.
     
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  17. Gizziracer

    Gizziracer Well-Known Member Contributing Member

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    Just thinking out loud but it’s possible there was a blockage in the oil way that supplies oil to the damaged shells/crank. I have come across a lot of small lumps of liquid gasket material inside these motors unwittingly entered by previous owners skimping on new gaskets. Amazing what I have found inside some of these motors.
     
  18. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the thought.
    Being a V motor. Both conrods run on the same crankpin. Oil galleries in the crank are free. Only sign of silicone sealant is from original manufacture. As mentioned previously, it does not look like this motor has ever been pulled down. I am going to put it down to oil starvation at some point during its life or some sort of random bearing fatigue problem.
     
  19. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    A bit more work on the Spada today.
    Checked the condition of the oil pump. All looks good.
    Still waiting on some parts out of China for the engine. This COVID stuff is seriously delaying deliveries out of China.
    Checked my cheapy gasket kit that arrive some time ago. I thought it was correct, but appears that the head gaskets are for a slightly different model VT250 engine. The gaskets on my engine have an internal oil feed hole for the camshafts. The delivered gasket kit does not have this oil hole.
    Does anyone know where to get compatible head gaskets for the Spada? OEM ones look to be expensive. Are there other options?
     
  20. Gen

    Gen Well-Known Member

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    Be sure to make sure the oil pump pressure relief valve works (seals) ok. it was a weak point on the 1st VT's
     

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