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Project Fuel Injected Turbo FZR250, half

Discussion in 'Your 250cc Projects' started by Mike Green, May 9, 2020.

  1. Mike Green

    Mike Green Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Reason for the rebuild and a bit of motivation
     

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  2. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    I did read all of the pages on kiwibikers from about 51 onwards

    Some very impressive work going there, that figure of 32HP made my eyes open wide and all of the tuning process with the EFI was really insightful
     
  3. Mike Green

    Mike Green Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    With the addition of the Link ECU and fuel pump and all the other electrical items needed I decided to go back to running the standard alternator rotor. Having one long trigger tooth was going to cause a problem so I had to shorten it to equal the other 3. Originally the long tooth would have been used to determine where the crankshaft was and as it fired the ignition of any pair each crank revolution it was fine. I use a cam mounted single tooth trigger to tell the ECU where the engine is within the full engine cycle which is 2 full crankshaft revolutions. The crankshaft mounted trigger tells the ECU where the crankshaft is within each single revolution. Link recommended a 6 tooth crank rotor which I had made but with that I didn't have any generator so had to run batteries. You can see in the videos of the bike on the dyno that I sometimes had a large car battery supplying the current.
    Having to shorten the long tooth I was a bit concerned about the balance of the rotor so I machined up a shaft to mount the rotor so it could turn freely on a couple of ball bearings. I mounted the rotor and checked before I shortened the tooth and found the rotor was quite heavy on the long tooth side. It looked like the rotor was balanced before the raised trigger teeth were pressed into the rotor. The teeth are obviously pressed into a die from the inside of the rotor, after which the magnets are glued in. I don't think the rotors are balanced afterwards.
    I went ahead and shortened the long tooth and then drilled a couple of spots on the edge of the rotor to balance it. I don't know the precise balance numbers but it is way way closer than the original unmodified rotor.
    Given what I found it would be worthwhile to check rotors on any engine that has a vibration problem. FZR rotor and shaft3.jpg FZR rotor and shaft2.jpg FZR rotor and shaft1.jpg
     
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  4. gregt

    gregt Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    As Mike said, he and his son did a road trip a few months back. Raided my shed for usable - but broken - FZR250's.
    Mine is finished but still needs carb setting up and basically development time.
    About a month prior to our lockdown here I was asking around for the date of this year's Battle of the Buckets. The biggest annual bucket race locally. Given a date, my development schedule would have been set.. Last couple of years it;s been a bit secret squirrel as far as the date goes. Organised at the last minute to run at a host club's meeting. Anyway, no one seemed interested in running it this year - then the lockdown hit.
    So it's parked atm. And another project half built already. We'll see how next summer's racing looks. It might get run at the CAMS Southern Classic meeting at Timaru in December. They run a bucket class And there's a local - ex NZ 250 production champ - who couild still squeeze onto it.
     
  5. Mike Green

    Mike Green Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    A few photos of the intake plenum. At the time I didn't have access to a lathe or mill but I did have oxy-acetylene and sheet metal. It basically is a 4" piece of tube with 2 velocity stacks and one end has a dished plate and the other tapers down to a small diameter that more or less matches the turbo outlet. The end cap was the last thing and was purge welded using a mates TIG welder
    . FZR intake plenum1.JPG FZR intake plenum2.JPG FZR intake plenum3.JPG FZR intake plenum4.JPG FZR intake plenum5.JPG FZR intake plenum6.JPG FZR intake plenum7.JPG FZR intake plenum8.JPG FZR intake plenum9.JPG FZR intake plenum10.JPG FZR intake plenum11.JPG FZR intake plenum12.JPG FZR intake plenum13.JPG FZR intake.JPG FZR intake2.JPG
     
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  6. Mike Green

    Mike Green Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Next are a few photos of the exhaust plenum and pipework. My theory was that due to the odd firing interval of the engine that I would need a plenum on the intake and exhaust to try and even things out a little bit between cylinders. I still believe that is worthwhile on the intake but now I'm considering making a new manifold that is the shortest possible pipe from the port to the turbo which will be mounted in front of the engine. The mount for the turbo is a boss on the end of the pipe that is clamped between a plate and the turbo flange. This allows the turbo to be rotated. I did this as I was not sure exactly how the turbo was going to be oriented. The turbo is mounted more or less on the pipe how it looks in the photos but the compressor outlet points straight up. I found really useful bits of radiator hoses in the bins at Supercheap when building this bike. It's a real shame the bins have gone. This plenum has a dished cap on one end and the other has a curved cone that tapers from the plenum diameter to the turbine inlet diameter and also bends 90degrees. The headers were a slip fit into the short pieces of pipe on the plenum to allow final tweaking to make it fit before being welded. Doing that also eliminated the possibility of a bit of welding wire protruding through the weld to the inside of the pipe with no way of polishing up the inside and removing it. I learnt that lesson the hard way on an old Mitsi ute I used to own. the pipe from the plenum to the turbine was also made with a slip joint to allow alignment and also for the same welding precaution. The end cap was the last bit welded on and was purge welded like the intake plenum.

    FZR exhaust1.jpg FZR exhaust2.jpg FZR exhaust3.jpg FZR exhaust4.jpg FZR exhaust5.jpg FZR exhaust6.JPG FZR exhaust7.JPG FZR exhaust8.JPG FZR exhaust9.jpg FZR turbo on exhaust1.jpg FZR turbo on exhaust2.jpg
     
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  7. Mike Green

    Mike Green Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Originally I used a piece of 2KR crankshaft. At the time I didn't know what ECU I was going to use and what I would need in the way of triggers so I cut the crank through one web and machined the remains of the web into a small boss in case I needed to mount a trigger on the crankshaft. I did the machining in this old lathe I owned at the time and finished it off using my high speed grinder in the tool post with a mounted stone. It's quite amazing how fast those cheap stones for a Black & Decker can be turned. The tapered end of the crank was held in the 4-jaw chuck and the other end was supported in a fixed steady. It came out pretty good but in the end I never used the boss. This did leave one main bearing on the other side of the cam sprocket through which oil was fed to the #2 bigend. The oil gallery in the crankshaft was drilled, tapped, and had a grub screw loctited in and then the end peened. The new crankshaft is a piece of 3LN crank but this time it is cut a short distance from the sprocket. All 3 unused main bearing oil supply holes have been tapped and had threaded rod screwed in, loctited and then the screwdriver slot in the end of each piece of rod spread with a cold chisel to lock it in place. The cut end was finished pretty roughly just using a flap disk in the angle grinder.

    FZR crank0.jpg FZR crank2.jpg FZR crank3.jpg FZR crank4.jpg FZR crank5.jpg FZR crank1.jpg
     
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  8. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    This sounds like a really interesting long term project. However, I am curious as to what was the original motivation for its creation?
     
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  9. Mike Green

    Mike Green Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    I have always been interested in a class of racing with small motorcycles. We used to call it Bucket Racing when it was just us Air Force guys. The rules when I started this allowed up to 125cc 4-strokes and up to 100cc 2-strokes. At the point in time when I started, if your 100cc 2-stroke made 22-24hp you were doing well. The 4-strokes weren't even close. I already had a good 2-stroke making 22.5hp and was looking for a 4-stroke bike. I figured it had to be a twin. My brother had a Honda 125T which was an awesome bike. My son has had a CB125T for a few years now which is currently running a stock engine which has never been apart in about 40 years. They are amazing little engines and seem happy at 12-14,000rpm all day, forever. Problem is that they are 2 valve cylinders and aircooled. There weren't any options obvious. I figured that maybe 1/2 of a 250/4 might be an option. They had all the features I was looking for - plain bearing crank, 4 valve heads, watercooled, and huge redline. I scored a broken engine and had a good look, then started cutting. It was put on the back burner for a lot of years but finally got there.
    It was always going to have engine management though at the start I didn't know the details. The addition of the turbo was just something I decided to do as I've always liked turbo bikes, from way before turbo anything was popular. I bought a turbo for a Yamaha XS1100 but it never went anywhere. That turbo ended up on my McIntosh Z1 which is another story.
    Right at the very start the dream was to make a 100cc V-twin using cylinders 1&4, supercharged, with a CVT, but I've sort of gone away from that, sort of. I've been messing round with my scooter as well and have a very good handle on making a CVT work so you never know. Now I think anything I build with a CVT will probably have an electric motor. Imagine that, a 20KW electric motor into a CVT with all the torque amplification of an already torquey power source. Remember that electric motors are nearly constant torque from 0rpm. Low rpm X torque = low horsepower. If you spin the electric motor to high speed then high rpm X torque = high horsepower. Feed the horsepower into a CVT and you get the speed reduction but retain the horsepower, therefore torque must increase at the output. cue maniac laughing
     
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  10. Mike Green

    Mike Green Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Cylinder head and cylinders have been sent to NZCylinders. The head will have the seats cut and the valves ground or machined. Maybe another angle might be cut on the valves as I see a benefit in cutting an angle on the inside diameter of the valve leading to the seating surface. Ideally that would be a curve but cost might stop that happening. I think the valve seats just need to be freshened up. I have asked them to check the pistons I have sent and choose a good pair for the sleeves. If possible I want the finish on the sleeves to be improved but that might be limited by the piston clearance. They mentioned that the coated cylinders they do give best results with a near mirror finish. I don't think honing the bores and coating them will be worthwhile as the sleeves seem to be pretty good material anyway and the clearance seems only a smidge on the loose side.
     
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  11. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Very interested to see the valve cut if you follow through with that - is it safe to assume that valve modification is only applicable to forced induction?
     
  12. Mike Green

    Mike Green Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    I don't believe so. Any improvement to flow is beneficial to both forced induction and normally aspirated. Probably more so with NA as you only have so much pressure pushing the mixture in whereas with FI you just increase the boost. I put oversize valves in my turbo Z1, only either inlet or exhaust, it was a long time ago. The size increase was only .5mm but the result was impressive. It went from serious power to oh-my-god power, lifting the front in top sort of power, even with the 15:27 final drive gearing. If the ports flow better you can reach other limits, like detonation, with less boost. With less boost the charge temp will be lower so the limits will be higher, so you can increase the boost again for even more power
     
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  13. Mike Green

    Mike Green Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Cylinders and head are at NZ Cylinders. The small size of the exhaust valves is a bit of a problem but Grant seems to think there will be a way. Grant also says they will be able to improve the bore surface. The bores seemed pretty good but it won't hurt to make absolutely sure.
     
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  14. Gen

    Gen Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Jun 22, 2020
  15. Gen

    Gen Well-Known Member

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    Dyno readout , red cup racing's fzr compound turbo beast


    red log.jpg
     
  16. Mike Green

    Mike Green Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    The bits have been at NZ Cylinders for a while now. The tiny exhaust valves are a real problem with no tooling available to cut them how they would like. They even sent a message to Adelaide Cylinder Heads, as above, but the FZR valves are 1mm smaller than the MC19 valves and they can't do them. NZ Cylinders are now looking at possibly doing the seats just using stones on a suitable pilot, but they are still not sure about doing the valves themselves. Despite the delays they seem pretty good to deal with and have been more than happy to call or take calls and discuss progress. I did tell them that there was absolutely no rush but that I did want the job done properly, which they seem to have been trying to come up with a way of doing.
     
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  17. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Keep at it, you'll get there. When you say they cannot do the valves what is it that is being done?
     
  18. Gen

    Gen Well-Known Member

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    I bought some Neway cutters, but, they had to be made smaller to miss the head, difficult job, but possible,
    I had problem with guide flex cutting by hand, I'm going to set a jig up to do them using my drill press, to avoid the flaexing, hopefully,
    http://www.beamequipment.com/opthelp.cgi?id=7643&prodid=undefined
    SKU:CU110
    Cutter Specifications:

    Cutter Body Diameter: 0.975" (23.765mm)
    Cutting Angle: 46°
    Carbide Blade Type: P/N TC253 - 5/16" Tungsten Carbide
    Number of Blades: 3
    Approximate Cutter Range: 0.551" - 1.142" (14mm - 29mm)
    Pilot Type Required: .297" Top Size - 100 or 120 Series Pilots
    Hex Drive Size: 3/8" Hex Drive - Use with TW513 T-Handle or TWEZ Easy Turn Wrench

    Neway 100 Series Small Diameter Cutter Bodies are designed to work with Neway
    .297" Top Size Valve Guide Pilots. These cutters are not compatible with the standard .375" Top Size Valve Guide Pilots.
    All Small Diameter Cutter Bodies can be driven using the 3/8" T-Handle Wrench or the Easy-Turn Wrench with the 1/2" to 3/8" Adaptor.
     
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  19. Mike Green

    Mike Green Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    NZ Cylinders were talking about pilots and making them from carbide to reduce flex even when using the CNC machine
     
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  20. Mike Green

    Mike Green Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Bit more conversation with NZ Cylinders. They have found there is a tool that allows their machine to cut valve seats down to the size of the exhaust valves. They will be very rare and doubtful if there are any in NZ and if there was it's unlikely that whoever might have one would be interested in cutting the exhaust valve seats. They are, of course, a bit on the pricey side so buying the tool and holder etc is not going to happen. The option we are now looking at is using a diamond coated hole saw to cut pieces out of an old grinding wheel from an old machine used to machine the valve seats on the valves themselves. Then using a diamond drill to make a hole in the middle, mount the stones on a custom mount and dressing the stones for the angle and diameter of the valve seats we want. We'll need 4 of them, 2 intake and 2 exhaust at 45 degrees and some other angle. The stone and holder will fit on a custom carbide pilot that fits in the valve guide. It's not ideal but is more or less how things used to be done anyway so should be OK. Better than nothing at least. I have a lead on a company that hopefully will be able to machine the pilot which NZ Cylinders want made from carbide
     
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