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Discussion eThings - Mobility miracles or mobile death traps

Discussion in 'Licence - Rego - Insurance - Law - Rider Training' started by jmw76, Jan 8, 2023.

  1. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    Ok. I am going to start off this thread to capture discussion on the growing number of devices that fall into the categories of eBikes, eScooters, eSkate boards, etc.

    Now I am well aware that there is growing opinion that these devices should be allowable as legal transportation devices around the world.

    Sales growth is exponential with numbers and model varieties going nuts.

    The fact is that the shear numbers and rapid increase in capability (speed/range) of these devices is currently well beyond the regulatory controls that we have.

    You can purchase an thing called an Wolf King GT eScooter at multiple stores throughout Australia that I personally can only view as a death trap. Here is a vehicle that is powered by dual electric motors (peak power of 8.4kW), has a top speed in excess of 100 km/h, a range of of 100km+ and rides on tiny 11" wheels. What is more it is not legal to ride in any state within Australia (other than on private property).
    https://www.electrickicks.com.au/products/kaabo-wolf-king-gt-electric-scooter.

    My daughter hired an eScooter while in Adelaide a little while ago. Her experience was not atypical. She got knocked off the thing by a car while crossing the road (on the footpath) and spent a night in the Adelaide hospital with a serious head injury. She puts her head laceration down to damage caused by the inadequate helmet that came with the scooter. It should be noted here that riding of eScooters in Adelaide is illegal currently. So I am not sure how you can actually hire one? Maybe someone else has better knowledge on this.

    There is a crying need to bring regulatory control of these devices into line with other transport regulations.

    Currently there is no uniform regulation across Australia to encompass the safe design, sale and use of these devices.

    The number of hospital admissions and deaths (riders and pedestrians) as a result of the use of these devices is rising as rapidly as the growth in sales.

    There needs to be sensible consideration given to controlling the sale and use of these devices.

    My believe is that there needs to design regulations that these devices need to meet and that the more powerful ones should be registered in some way.

    Peter.
     
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  2. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Sorry to hear about your daughter's incident.

    Wow, $5,990 for an eScooter. I'm guessing it's made in our favourite country and costs under $1,000 landed here in Oz. I'm not sure about other states, but in Victoria the progressive and inclusion-driven government there has been running a year-long trial that was due to end shortly, but has been extended; see below articles from the Age newspaper, Melbourne Council and the RACV. The cops will end up treating eScooters like graffiti and look the other way (or they will be told to do so). If you want to know the real driving force behind these devices, then don't bother with 'environmentally friendly', 'convenient' and 'it's cool to be seen on one', just look in your wallet. Excellent, I've managed to get my Sunday morning rant out of the way early.

    https://tinyurl.com/2p8fmu32
    https://tinyurl.com/y6d8d6ze
    https://tinyurl.com/3vvphpa8

    And, my favourite article from the Daily Mail that mentions the tremendous Melbourne statistics of 252 crashes and 827 fines!

    https://tinyurl.com/4yk3scsw
     
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    Last edited: Jan 8, 2023
  3. GreyImport

    GreyImport Administrator Staff Member The Chief Contributing Member

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    When in Melbourne for the MotoGP I saw these things everywhere .... alot just left on the side of the road or on the footpaths ... Im assuming they are "hire" ones
    I also saw them battling thru traffic and thinking "no thanx"

    I guess it is a money thing .... just look at third world countries ... easy, convenient, cheap

     
  4. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    From my research the velocity required to cause death from a head injury caused by sudden impact with a solid object (road, concrete etc) is 12 kph and 8kph for serious injury. This is why we wear helmets. This e-scooter stupidity reminds me of the free/share bicycle nonsense except it has the potential to result in a lot more injury and death, to say nothing of the fires.

    Here is my sensible consideration, a complete ban. Learn to walk you useless bipeds.
     
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  5. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    In Australia, we have regulations in place for many years to define what constitutes a motor vehicle.

    We except that motor vehicles can be dangerous, particularly in unskilled hands.
    An electric motor is still a motor, so by definition one mounted on a vehicle should fit the same rules.

    Now there is an argument that would support an update to our vehicle/road regulations to bring them up to date and remove the vague bits around eThings.

    Just because it is popular to use eThings doesn't in its own right mean that we should just ignore regulations.
    There needs to be a push to update the regulations that make the ownership and use of eThings safe for all. Well, at least minimise the risk of injury/death anyway.

    It doesn't make a lot of sense to have a requirement to register little 50cc scooters (some barely managing 5kW) and yet public opinion, from those lesser informed, seems to want to have the right to fly around on these little death traps (unlicensed and unregistered) because it is trendy.
     
  6. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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  7. Linkin

    Linkin The Mechanic Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    My boss has something similar though not as fast, it does maybe 20km/h maximum. I agree that they are not particularly safe given their iffy handling due to small wheels.

    I borrowed it to get myself to and from work for a while (distance of maybe 2km, not worth commuting on a motorcycle really, but a bit far to walk every day), without knowing they can't be used on footpaths or roads, only private property.

    As I was going home one day (on the footpaths, never on the road - not safe), right outside of home a HWP car on the road sees me, chucks a u-turn in traffic and follows me. Got the lights and sirens and got infringements for: Unregistered vehicle, no tax paid on registerable vehicle, no insurance on registerable vehicle, no motorcycle helmet. Almost $3000 in fines. They treat them the same as using a bona fide motorcycle.

    Taking them to court and getting them to prove its' a motorcycle as these things do not meet any ADR's, have no VIN, and are not registerable at all.

    If I'm lucky I'll get a court date by the end of the year, courts are packed.


    To add insult to injury, you can rent one from the companies participating in the trials and use them, but you can't own one privately and do the same. It's a joke stores can sell these things yet they are illegal to use.
     
  8. GreyImport

    GreyImport Administrator Staff Member The Chief Contributing Member

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    You should be fine with your impeccable past record .... oh wait :oops:

    :lolsign:
     
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  9. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Holy crap! That is just off the charts. Why not ask the judge if you can pay $186000 or do 10 years behind bars. I mean it is obviously a heinous crime, right?
     
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  10. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Contributing Member Ride and Events Crew

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    I think the authorities don't want to know because it opens up a whole can of worms with the mobility scooters that the oldies get around on (something to look forward to heh).
    I agree that some form of licencing/rego needs to be in force as I saw the results when one of my elderly neighbours was run over by an old sheila (on the footpath) on her scooter. Cops and ambo called with Mal spending a week in hospital and the cops did nothing (I thought maybe assault with deadly weapon) just took her home.
     
  11. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    FWIW the fines for unregistered and uninsured are the owners liability - they're [The Coppers] obviously nasty AND the clincher is that in traffic matters costs cannot be claimed against the Police, BUT you may be able to get them for malicious prosecution if the fines levied against you are factually incorrect in law and without lawful basis.

    I used to know someone in the NSW Police, even the normal Police dislike the Highway Patrol and think they're complete a##holes
     
  12. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    They look as "Australian made" as the Ozito tools Bunnings sell.

    I'm guessing this page gets a lot of use...

    https://www.mearth.com.au/pages/request-for-a-repair
     
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  13. mboddy

    mboddy Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    A friend was run over on his ebike and became a quadraplegic.
    Because the ebike was over the legal 200w his payout was reduced by 3 million dollars.
     
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  14. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Was your friend riding an eScooter or an eBike?
     
  15. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Legal on private roads, so technical loophole right there regarding them being sold. I'm guessing the items being sold probably have a warning somewhere on them or their sales literature (which is probably electronic and linked via a QR code) saying you might not be allowed to ride these on public roads or footpaths. But, lets be honest, the people buying these things aren't buying them to ride them around their yards are they? I don't know about other states, but I would think most of the fines handed out in Victoria will have the 'I want the matter heard in Court' box ticked by the recipient. Victoria has a 5-year stay of execution on fines, so if it's not settled in that time-frame, it is dismissed (written off)...brilliant!

    Under Victorian law, “bad debt” is written off after five years as authorities deem fines unlikely to be repaid and don’t always have the means to follow up.

    https://7news.com.au/news/melbourne...as-fines-victoria-write-off-tickets-c-2778671
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2023
  16. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, we need to sort out the regulations/law first along with policing of such.
    Once we get this sorted, everything else should fall into place.

    Here is my take on some of the regulatory framework that appears to be being adopted in a number of Australian states, that I believe is likely to be adopted nationally at some point. Seems like a sensible approach at this point.

    - less than 25kg
    - less than 1250mm long, 700mm wide and 1350mm high
    - must not be capable of travelling faster than 25km/h on level ground under its own power
    - no sharp protrusions
    - be fitted with an effective stopping system
    - restricted to 25km/h speed limit on roadways, bicycle paths and shared trails
    - restricted to 10km/h speed limit on footpaths
    - riders must be over 16 years of age
    - a helmet must be worn (approved bicycle or motorcycle helmet)
    - mobile phones, etc must not be used
    - passengers (including animals) should not be carried
    - not to be used on roadways where the speed limit exceeds 50 km/h
    - not to be used on roads with a dividing lane/median strip
    - must be fitted with lights and reflectors for night/hazardous weather
    - have warning device fitted
    - not to be used on a one way carriageway with more than one marked lane
    - restrict travel speed at marked pedestrian crossing to 10km/h or less
    - use hand signals or turn signal lights, where fitted
    - keep at least 1 hand on the handlebars at all times
    - keep left
    - maintain a minimum separation distance to vehicles in front of at least 2m
    - drug and alcohol limits apply when riding an eScooter

    I also believe that there needs to be a set of basic Design Rules/Standards that eScooters, etc should comply with before being made available for sale in Australia.

    Believe it or not, there is actually a fire safety standard for eScooters (ANSI/CAN/UL 2272). But no standard to control the safety of the product as a whole.

    Peter.
     
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  17. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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  18. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Contributing Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Couldn't they find a bigger truck. :lolsign:
     
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  19. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    I actually like the scooters and bikes, they are not materially different from pushbikes and scooters in general.

    Good part of it is that I have seen people on scooters where they would otherwise be driving a car - short trips where it's too far to walk sensibly etc.

    Rules need to be observed, just as on pushbikes and normal scooters, so there's no actual material difference, attitudes need to change and courtesy needs to rule in respect of pedestrians, which goes for drivers also - up where I am motorists can be downright hostile to cyclists.

    I've seen the way the rental ones get left all over the place, that was a symptom of just general bad attitudes, same went for bicycles that all got thrown into rivers, really crap attitudes driving that.

    NSW coppers handing out fines of the magnitude that they have been, well that's just a malevolent attitude IMO.
     
  20. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    @Frankster the hidden information in article you found is that the rider was unlicensed and drug/alcohol affected.
    Unfortunately, I think eScooters are seen as quick fix for those that should otherwise not be legally riding/driving.
    Not an uncommon tale.

    @ruckusman as for cops dishing out fines, do you see a better way to enforce the law. Regardless of what we may think about the state of the laws, the cops are just doing their job and trying to enforce them. Its a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. We do not live in a society without rules. Theoretically, the rules are intended to protect the interests of the majority. We need to provide clarity so that all can understand the rules. For those that still choose not to accept the rules, we have officers of the law to assist with their understanding and enforcement.
     
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