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Discussion Electric Vehicles - The Way of the Future?

Discussion in 'The Pub' started by maelstrom, May 1, 2021.

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  1. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    The Great Grandfather/mother of the Nissan Leaf...

     
    Frankster, May 30, 2021
    #41
  2. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    • Informative Informative x 1
    jmw76, May 30, 2021
    #42
  3. mboddy

    mboddy Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    @mboddy does your EV have a cooling system?

    I don't think so. The 1st generation Leaf is not very sophisticated compared to the later vehicles.
     
    mboddy, May 30, 2021
    #43
  4. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Yes, it appears the first gen Leafs are basic enough not to require cooling. I've been doing a bit of reading and it's amazing how complex the current generation of Electric Vehicles are. The more you dig, the more you find. It's not just a big battery and an electric motor. Motorcycles don't have the same requirements of a road car, so much 'easier' to make an electric version. Cars need air-conditioning, heating and a bunch of stuff that runs on electricity. Looks like EV Car makers use the heat from the batteries and aircon coolant to offset some of those requirements. Hopefully, this thread keeps going with more info.

    https://au.mathworks.com/help/physm..._battery_cooling.html?container=jshelpbrowser
     
    Frankster, May 31, 2021
    #44
  5. Gert

    Gert Well-Known Member

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    • Informative Informative x 1
    Gert, May 31, 2021
    #45
  6. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Contributing Member Ride and Events Crew

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    The electric vehicles will be good for the city commute (so long as the power grid can hold up) and the city people will enjoy the clean air, but I wonder how those living/working in areas like the Hunter Valley where that electricity is being produced from coal will enjoy the smoke?
    Also has there been any studies about the electro/magnetic radiation being given off by the battery/motor/charging bits? I do wonder about how riding an electric bike with your nuts so close to all those electrons buzzing about will effect the cancer rate in years to come.
     
    • Well said! Well said! x 1
    Murdo, Jun 1, 2021
    #46
  7. ShaneP

    ShaneP Well-Known Member

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    It depends on the power station, too. When greenies want to tell you how bad coal power is, they go to a brown coal station in Victoria, not a black coal station in Queensland. But, electric vehicles are much more efficient, using only necessary power, lower losses and use regeneration/reclaim power systems. IC is about 30% efficient when in use, 0% when idling. Fuel cell would be good, too, but it seems to be dragging the chain.
     
    ShaneP, Jun 3, 2021
    #47
  8. Andych

    Andych Moderator Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Yes... black coal is (marginally) better than brown coal but neither is overly efficient or clean... regardless of what the producers tell you.
    The clowns in NSW are wanting to convert Liddell to Gas but will need to run it on Diesel for a many years until the Natural Gas line can be built... again... another non renewable source.
    The biggest issue is they are NOT Sustainable...there is a finite amount just like there is Oil (from which fuel is produced). It used to be the case that the large oil companies had the ability to suffocate any sort of new technology that threatened their business model but that is changing (along similar lines to tobacco companies) in that they are now actively investigating the use of sustainable products to power Internal Combustion engines in the future.. F1 is pushing along these lines as well. Hybrid is the biggest push with regenerative braking and waste heat recovery dramatically improving overall power.
    The biggest issue when talking about Electric bikes or cars is people go off the rails and it ends up in a rant over the ideology of Electric vs Fuel which is now up there with Religion and Politics as a divisive discussion point...
     
    Andych, Jun 3, 2021
    #48
  9. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    The following links are for general knowledge purposes only. They do not, in any way, represent my political, sexual, environmental or any other leanings.

    Interesting to learn when the electric bicycle was first patented... "On 19 September 1895, a patent application for an "electrical bicycle" was filed by Ogden Bolton Jr. of Canton Ohio. On 8 November of the same year, another patent application for an "electric bicycle" was filed by Hosea W. Libbey of Boston."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motor

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_fuels

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motorcycles_and_scooters

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Rockefeller
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
    Frankster, Jun 3, 2021
    #49
  10. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Whoa Nelly. Can we ease up on the political stuff.
    I opened the thread to talk about e-fuels and how that should be part of the solution. That is relevant because some of us love bikes with engines in them and e-fuels offer us a way to enjoy them in the future. On the side of EV's, we all know that they are not a panacea, but they will be a big part of the solution going forward. As Andy said, people get all emotional and try to shut down discussion, which seems to be the way of things these days. This is our happy bike forum, let's keep it that way and avoid the emotional stuff.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    maelstrom, Jun 3, 2021
    #50
  11. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Back to these tiny EV motors.
    I have had this idea about a bike hybrid. Run a triplex sprocket on the swingarm pivot. One to the back wheel, one to the countershaft sprocket and one to the electric motor. Big issue at the moment seems to be the weight of the batteries but I expect this will improve over time. If you could tack on an extra 5kw to a 250cc four then that is a significant increase in power.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
    maelstrom, Jun 3, 2021
    #51
  12. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    I'd be keen to have a crack at doing an electric bike, but I'm working with Murdo on the ZXR250T (turbo) project and focused on that. The DLRA (Dry Lakes Racers Association) has many electric bike classes, so it might be an option somewhere down the road. Happy to help if anyone in Melbourne wants to have a crack at an electric bike for racing.
     
    Frankster, Jun 3, 2021
    #52
  13. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    This was uploaded on the 3rd of June 2021, so it's reasonably current. Comprehensive comparison of E-fuel and other 'power' options. Presenter mentions Porsche E-fuel program, so he hasn't missed anything when collecting and collating data for this clip. Good YT channel (Engineering Explained) for dummies like me who need things explained at a basic and visual level.

     
    Frankster, Jun 4, 2021
    #53
  14. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    First of all, keep your feet on the ground; 16.2% of global greenhouse emissions comes from road transport.
    https://ourworldindata.org/emissions-by-sector
    If you say that you are switching to an electric motorcycle to save the world then you are deluded. Speaking of which, have you seen Tesla's solar roof tiles, awesome. I want some, Elon are you listening?

    Good video Frank, and the title says it all. Nobody would be silly enough to advocate synthetic fuels for 'passenger cars', at least not at the cost mentioned in the video. I don't love my passenger car. If it was a Ford GT40, I would. If you can afford a Bugatti Grand Sport then you can afford to fill it up. When an electric car is an option here that is both economical and meaningful (18% of Thailand's electricity comes from renewables and the rest from filthy brown coal) then an EV is on the table for me. Synthetic fuels are going ahead because they will be legislated into existence. As I mentioned before, you cannot power a Boeing 747 on batteries. The video that Frankster posted only uses the Porsche model of industrial e-fuel production and does not consider others like 3rd generation biofuels.


    I expect that the technology to produce e-fuels will develop quickly and the prices will drop accordingly. Long after I am dead, my boys will have the ancient relics in the garage that they can pour their home made synfuel into and go for a spin.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
    maelstrom, Jun 4, 2021
    #54
  15. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Yes, I agree with your summation and yes, Biofuel was not included in that previous comparison. I know the algae thing has been around for many years and it has plenty of merit not just as a biofuel medium, but many other applications as well. That YT video is a few years old. This one's a bit more current and I like this guy's (Joe Scott) 'science for dummies' approach. He seems optimistic about algae biofuel. I don't want to distract this thread from what it was meant for, but I do think these little sidesteps are informative and a little bit of knowledge never hurt anyone (as far as I'm aware!).



    P.S. I'd love my passenger car too if it was a GT40.
     
    Frankster, Jun 4, 2021
    #55
  16. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure it is a distraction. It is all relevant.
    The thing that needs to be considered is the total energy equation and the environmental impact.
    It is no good just looking at the vehicle and its on-board technologies. We need to factor in what happens with the process to generate the stuff (fuel/energy) that powers these vehicles.
    Many of these new/old fuel ideas need a lot of energy/cost/effort to create the fuel before it gets anywhere near a vehicle.
    Fuel cells sound like a great idea but!!!! Although the cells themselves are quite efficient, the cost associated with producing the fuel is something else. To extract and deliver Hydrogen needs a lot of energy. Hydrogen is also extremely difficult to store, due to its small molecular size (it tends to leak out of most containers). Not to forget that it is quite explosive (ref the Hindenburg).

    Using other fuels than Hydrogen in a fuel cell is less efficient and requires much more complexity. There is also the start up time associated with more complex fuel cell systems. A simple turn of the key (push a button these days) might result in a considerable delay before the wheels actually turn.

    The reason many of these alternate energy ideas have not become practical is mostly because of the inefficiency when you look at the total energy cycle. It is one thing to demonstrate a concept on a small scale, but a totally different thing when considering a total large scale solution.

    Of course, not to forget about the substantial investment in the existing supply chains and what lengths the various concerned parties will go to in order to protect their investments.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    jmw76, Jun 4, 2021
    #56
  17. ShaneP

    ShaneP Well-Known Member

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    https://www.southcoastregister.com.au/story/5625227/charcoal-drove-region/

    Necessity is the mother of invention, right? Runs on bio-fuel (wood)... If the fuel was manufactured rather than the car having a burner then it could be more efficient. The gases are like that of coal seam gas; building blocks for more suitable compounds.

    The biggest obstacle for electric vehicles is alternative combustion fuel and engines. Legislation and social pressure will be major driving forces.
     
    ShaneP, Jun 5, 2021
    #57
  18. mboddy

    mboddy Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    I won't be switching. My electric motorcycle will be in addition to all my fossils.
    I have a number of motorcycles and they each have their own function.
    My wife's Leaf is great to drive. An electric sports motorcycle done very well would be a lot of fun.
    I expect it to be more civilised than my 2 strokes.
    But i will probably always want the thrill I get from my uncivilised ones.
    Some of my bikes are scary beasts and that is their appeal.
    My TZ350F, YZ400D and IT400 classic dirt tracker all demand respect but deliver big.
    My IT125 and IT175 Vintage Enduro bikes require total focus to ride fast through difficult terrain but reward you for it.
    The TDR250 is so much fun when you push it to the limit on the track.
    And my TZR250 race bike is the best road bike I have ever ridden.
    It would be a fantastic thing if my electric could get in the ball park with the TZR but I seriously doubt it will.
     
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    mboddy, Jun 5, 2021
    #58
  19. mboddy

    mboddy Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    A couple of electric motorcycles from Sydney.

     
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    mboddy, Jul 1, 2021
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  20. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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