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Help Electrical Questions

Discussion in 'Tech Tips' started by Frankster, Jun 22, 2018.

  1. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Question 2: check this video from the DIY lithium thread

    https://www.2fiftycc.com/index.php?threads/lithium-batteries-lifepo4-diy.9981/

    IIRC he reckons the battery on his SV650 draws ~250 Amps on starting - the 12 volt 9Ah capacity is a measure of it's power density VA = watts which is a measure of power, not it's current capacity which is measured in Cold Cranking Amps - the current capacity dropping over time with age leads to batteries which cannot turn the engine.
    The 30amp fuse is usually for the electrical system - the starter is routed straight through - no fuse
     
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  2. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Question 1: check your numbers
    @18000RPM the engine is doing 300 cycles per second

    F = 4 x 18000/2 = 36000 - correct 36000/60 = 600 sparks per seconds - but same as cycles per second for each coil firing once per cycle,
    300 ignition sparks per coil per second
    0.0032 seconds per revolution
    So that's 0.0032 seconds between spark events on each coil - but there's no points which is where you used to set/check dwell

    Different situation to dwell on a car, however with an oscilloscope you could check the charge to coil saturation time of the ignition TCI through the rev range - it might not be reaching full saturation at 18000RPM - only thing you can say for certain is that the dwell time at 18000RPM is less than 0.0032 seconds because the transistor has to charge the coil and drop the voltage to zero in that time
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  3. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    What, a multimeter that can handle 400A for $7? When I was a lad we'd have to sell an arm and a leg to get one of those. I'm going to buy one just so that I can say I did.
     
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  4. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    You could achieve this relatively easily with a Dyno which can hold RPM, and a timing light with degree marks on the flywheel housing - work your way through the rev range and plot the advance.
    A couple of runs and you should have a good graph

    From other maps I have seen there is usually a boost in the advance just prior to where the engine comes onto the cam, which is usually
    in resonance with the airbox as it also assists overcoming the slight flat spot.
    Back down a bit to a gradual rise to redline then a cut usually to prevent massive over -rev
     
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  5. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Witchcraft I tell you, it's witchcraft - the devil will get your soul
     
  6. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Well if the multimeter is rubbish I will throw it away and keep the strap.
     
  7. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    It's probably fine, you wouldn't use it for electrical engineering work, but to get a reading/readings for comparison perfect
     
  8. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Looked at the spec's and found some that look the same
    They have AC current listed but no DC Current :20-200-400A,±2.0%

    100A Uni-t Clamp Meter $27.99 inc post
    https://www.ebay.com/p/1240541908?trdt=0&iid=142817209925&rt=nc
    I have had a couple of Uni-T multimeter's they seem to last a while

    s-l1600.jpg
    400A DC Clamp meter $25US inc post
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/BSIDE-ACM0...588867&hash=item1cac1f43ec:g:rCEAAOSw7Kta3Yst

    s-l1600.jpg
     
  9. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    There's quite a few Fluke meter's on aliexpress.
    Mine started playing up about 10 year's ago after i dropped it while climbing out from under a car dash,
    might give it a service one day

    I have a few multimeter's, none that can measure DC Amp's higher than 10A though
    There's probably another 4 or 5 old school analogue meter's in the shed too.


    20180622_230722.jpg
     
  10. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Thanks for all your posts Ruchus. Lots of good stuff, so keep it coming. I need to know dwell periods because of the Ignitech Programmable Controller. The software wants me to tell it what dwell period I want. What I didn't want to do was set it too high or too low. I need a Goldilocks setting where it's just right.

    So, if I set Dwell to 3ms I should be fine across the rev range..Yes?
     
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  11. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    I will get one of these.

    Also, I run a lithium battery in the bike, so is this the "right" R/R to get? I could only find a FH020 online.

    Shindengen FH019 Mosfet Shunt type
    Maximum current (no cooling): 41A
    Maximum current: 50A
    Maximum Voltage 14.2V
    W: 90mm, D: 84.5mm, H: 32mm

    At some point I'd like to try and go COP on the VT250F, so I might need some help or someone to confirm what I'm doing is okay. Basically will need a short pencil coil and there's no waste spark on the VT, so wiring and resistance checking/matching should be easier.
     
  12. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Well looking at it this way, if you go to an ignitech, is there the potential to run 4 individual ignition channels?
    Going to need to indicate to the system when it's at TDC cylinder 1 firing with a cam sensor of some manner. A hall effect sensor with a neodymium magnet is probably a good way to go.

    If you can make 4 individual channels, there will be more current available for the individual coils on plug - those units will have specs for the dwell time to saturate sufficiently for high energy spark. The highest RPM values may be a compromise.

    So as I said, 3.2 milliseconds is the absolute maximum time available to the system at 18K RPM, that may be less than ideal. Do they have a an oscilloscope available in your course? At least that way you could check the dwell currently in the OEM system with the OEM coils and program that. Check if it works through the range, then install the coils on plug
     
  13. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    I know it's been covered on this forum somewhere, but I can't find which type of R/R should be used with Lithium batteries and what voltage they should support e.g. if the Lithium battery is rated at 14.4v do you get a R/R that only goes up to that voltage or can you go a little higher like 14.5v?
     
  14. Linkin

    Linkin The Mechanic Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    I've been trying to figure this out, too.

    The best I have come up with is that bikes which used a flooded lead acid battery as standard can sometimes charge up to 15 volts, which is too much for a lithium. Requiring a regulator that limits output to 14.4v or 14.5v. Not sure how the stator works into the equation.
     
  15. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    I don't think it does Adrian. I know you reduce the 'size' of the flywheel and the charging system will still generate enough AC for the R/R to charge the battery. The wavelength of the AC might not be as high (I think), so it might take longer for the R/R to get the maximum voltage it is built off. I thought I read somewhere that excess voltage is sent to Earth by the R/R, so getting the right one for the battery being used seems important. I guess @jmw76 or one of the other electrical gurus will confirm what the best solution is and which type of R/R is best for Lithium batteries.
     
  16. Mike Green

    Mike Green Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Typically a clamp-on amp meter nowadays. Lead acid batteries will provide current only limited by their internal resistance so 100A wouldn't be unusual. Lithium(LiFe) type have miniscule internal resistance and will provide huge current if allowed. In a motorcycle the current of either will be limited by the resistance of the starter motor.
     
  17. Mike Green

    Mike Green Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Nearly all LiFe batteries have a built-in Battery Management System(BMS). These will limit the voltage applied to the cells and in most cases will also limit the maximum current that is able to be drawn from the battery. LiFe batteries I have seen also have a large fuse built in. Even without a BMS the LiFe batteries seem to do just fine in a car or motorbike. The problem occurrs when they are charged with a charger designed for lead acid. These chargers often have facility that corrects sulfation by overcharging at a low current. This kills LiFe batteries.
     
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  18. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    So Mike, what is the better R/R to use with a Lithium battery? Shunt; Mosfet etc? I am going to go back to running a charging system on my race bike, so I want to make sure I'm using the proper/best unit for the job. I have no electrical requirements other than starting the bike and running it down the drag strip (coils). There are no lights or anything else that drains the battery (currently). The standard ZXR250 R/R tends to play up, so I would prefer to get something a little newer with better technology. Craig, the guy who started this thread (https://2fiftycc.com/index.php?threads/shindengen-regulator-rectifiers.10005/), detailed a lot of different Shindengen units. The unit below is rated for a maximum of 41Amps without cooling. Do I need something with this much current? I just need the R/R to keep the battery charged and (in the future) power an O2 sensor, a quickshifter and a shift light. I'm becoming confused by battery CCA ratings and R/R current ratings, so is it the case that I only need a R/R that has a maximum current rating that will cover all the electrical devices on the bike?

    Shindengen FH012 Mosfet Shunt type
    Maximum current (no cooling): 41A
    Maximum current: 50A
    Maximum Voltage 14.8V
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2023
  19. Mike Green

    Mike Green Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    I don't know which type of R/R is better. I'm pretty sure the FZR alternator output is only rated as 19A so a R/R exceeding that value would be a waste. 5A would probably cover what you are looking at including the lambda heater. I have a bit of load on my bike and just have some R/R that was lying around, probably a standard FZR R/R. It has no cooling but I do have it bolted to an alloy bracket which warms up a bit. The bracket provides a heatsink and a good earth which is important. CCA and R/R ratings are totally separate. CCA is the current the battery is rated to provide for starting. The R/R is not involved. Once the engine is running and the alternator is generating electricity then the R/R rating comes into play and is simply the maximum it "could" output given sufficient input and an output load that can handle it.
     
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  20. Yetiburger

    Yetiburger Well-Known Member

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    I would highly advise against a standard shunt-type R/R for a lithium battery (I have destroyed at least 3 Lithium batteries figuring this out). I used a Mosfet R/R. I can't quite remember but I believe it has to do with the charging wavelength and amplitude. AGM batteries are pretty robust but lithium batteries are way more sensitive to the charging signal they receive. All the lithium batteries had a protection circuit to prevent incorrect charging.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 29, 2023
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